Studio Payscales Across Eastern Europe, What do Studio Models Really Earn?

Okay, if a member is charged $2.99 per minute (for example) to chat with a model on a site where does that money go exactly? A lot of people are surprised to hear that most of it does not go to the site owners. In fact they get very little...

Here is an example of how it breaks down for a typical revshare deal:

Studio/Ind. Model %: 40%
Affiliate/Marketing %: 35%
Credit Card Processing: 10%

Per minute charge: $2.99
Studio/Ind. Model: $1.20
Affiliate/Marketing: $1.05
Credit Card Processing: $0.30

So that's about $2.55 gone out of the $2.99 already leaving about $0.44 for the site owner and that's before they pay for their staff, hosting, bandwidth, office, support, etc, etc.... Also, factor in the cost of building a cam site is about $250k and if they often have to pay out studios/models and affiliates before receiving any money from their credit card processing bank.

The percentages can and do vary, but you get the idea. For a straight revshare deal I've seen it go anywhere from 25% to 40%. For studios/models it can go from about 30% to 40% typically though a lot of big sites (ie. streamate) pay their Romanian studios less than they would pay to studios in other parts of the world. The Credit Card Processing charges can be over 15% or as little as 5%. All depends on if they use a 3rd billing company (most have to) or can get their own merchant account.

Now, I'm not saying that anyone needs to feel sorry for these site owners at all. It can be an extremely lucrative business, but you can see why volume is so important to these sites. Especially the big ones. Also, there is a very high failure rate for cam site startups. I personally know of one company that ate $2.5 million before finally throwing in the towel...

Questions? Comments?

This breakdown sounds about right to me...VCS...

WE know that running these sites and the global network of communication they create is a very expensive propostion ...

I was told that the guys who really make the money are the affiliates?
that is, the Webmasters running their own sites who bring in members and who get paid a sign-up fee and then some kind of residual.
Some sites promise a very high bonus for new sign ups 40% of the fee
others 10%... So a good Vebmasterov might make as much as $50,000 per month.

But what is the normal profit rate that investor expect as a return on their investiment? There must be an incentive to invest in this kind of business that is a powerful attraction..no? Given the legal pressures and the moral stigma attached to being called a "web-pimp.."

BTW what the hell is an upsell?

The main point remains the Women (and the men) who work in the cam studios come by and large from Asia, Eastern Europe and Latin America.. the Global East and South..
So most of the customers come from the Global North..at least so far.. because of the lack of penetration of many Asian societies by credit card companies.

Almost all the money comes from the Western Countries of the G7 and that's where it stays...with only a pittance going outside of the developed world.
What do u think, VCS?

UL

>>I was told that the guys who really make the money are the affiliates?

It can be extremely lucrative for all involved. I started as an affiliate and was one of the best in the business back in the day. The most I made in a week was almost $35,000. I know of people who have make $80,000 and $120,000 in a week. Yes, 1 single week... These numbers are rare though. Only a handful of people can reach these numbers. I know models that earn 6 figures per year. I know many that make over $80,000 per year. I know studio owners that are millionaires. I know girls who work in studios that make over $50k a year.

>>But what is the normal profit rate that investor expect as a return on their investiment?

I've got all the numbers for investors, but they really are meaningless. Most people who try to start cam sites fail. That's just a fact. Very few have the skillset and connections necessary to pull it off. For those that do it's extremely lucrative.

>>BTW what the hell is an upsell?

Examples would be "Fan Club" memberships. Basically anything extra the site tries to get members to spend money on. Ideally it would be some kind of monthly charge, but not always.

>>The main point remains the Women (and the men) who work in the cam studios come by and large from Asia, Eastern Europe and Latin America.

Yes, that is true, but I know a lot of models who work in the US. Just not in studios. I met with one of the best adult entertainment attorneys in the business about setting up a studio in the US and he told me I would be insane to do it. With all the sexual harrassment and discrimination laws on the books in the US it would be a legal minefield he said. I know of some studios in Southern CA that did employee illegal immigrants. Not sure if they are still around. There are many more studios in Canada. According to the attorney I met with it's because the legal climate there makes it less risky.

>>So most of the customers come from the Global North..at least so far.. because of the lack of penetration of many Asian societies by credit card companies.

Most members come from America. About 80%. Credit cards are not nearly as common even in Western Europe as they are in the US where pretty much anyone with a bank account has a Mastercard or Visa debit that works like a normal credit card. None of the major sites takes Visa Electron, Maestro or other similar cards popular in Europe.

>>Almost all the money comes from the Western Countries of the G7 and that's where it stays...with only a pittance going outside of the developed world.

Most of these sites are not US companies. Streamate, for example, is a Cyprus company, but they are run out of Seattle. Not sure where their billing goes through, but most likely somewhere like the Philippines or maybe Central America. Camcontacts is owned by a Brit, but bills out of Asia and their main office is in Riga, Latvia. They employ about 50 people in Latvia I'm told. Most of the large cam sites outsource their support to places like India or the Philippines. They also tend to keep their money out of the West as much as possible.

I understand what you are getting at, but I'm not sure you're painting an entirely accurate picture. Yes, there are some terrible conditions these girls work under. The worst I have seen or heard about is in Central and South America. The truth though is out of the hundreds of models I know personally the majority were able to use the money they earned from this as a stepping stone to a better life. I know girls from small towns that spoke no English at all, but after a year of working on cam they learned English well enough to get a normal job in a bigger city, go to University and now work in Western Europe. A good friend of mine was able to support her parents, her very ill sister and put herself through University and Medical School with the money she earned working in a studio. She's now a doctor and happily married. I know many girls that put themselves through law school. Truth is I also know girls that are kind of stuck in a situation where if they work on cam they can earn 2 to 3 times more money than they can at a good job in their country so even after trying a "normal" job they keep coming back to working on cam because of the money. I also know of one specific girl that hit earned great money on cam and spent it all on her extravagant lifestyle, but then it dried up. For whatever reason she wasn't earning nearly enough to support her "needs" anymore. So, what did she do? She had a friend working as an escort in London and she was told how great the money was and off she went... Out of the hundreds, if not thousands, of models I personally have dealt with through the years, either as friends or in business or both, I can say that the majority have been able to greatly improve both their lives and their families with the money they have earned. Also, keep in mind the money the studio owners and models make usually stays, and is spent, in the Global South and East.

A very good answer.. just the sort of thing I was looking for...

And I agree a lot of models are 'very together" and cool with their business...
Alot more than many of their clients who are often socially dysfunctional, sadistic or hopelessly addicted..

I ask myself how I dodged the addiction bullet myself sometimes..
perhaps through a not very subtle displacement of my sexual curiosity from the models to the global business they are part of...lol

All that you have to say about the outsourcing of the business and financing of this business adds yet another wrinkle...but does not falsify the basic model of Globalization of the sex industry away from California's Central Valley that works to the advantage of Western global companies by reducing their labor and production costs.

The big boys in this business remain in America, ImFriends (120 employees in their offices in California) , ImLive and Vivid Videos...CCBill, Paypal and IBill are still American owned companies..last I heard - even if they process their paper work elsewhere. Whether they can afford tostay in the US is another matter.. with the Justice department and the FBI bringing "obscentiy prosecutions" and breaking their chops over underage models..
The "uncertainties" hanging over the American market may have lessened some with the election of a Democratic Congress, but American companies are still heading north to the new Porn Meccas.. Toronto and Montreal...Vancouver.

Anyway.. I think you make a very important point about the centrality of the American market..both a source of customers and equally important of free-lance cam girls...who are online by the thousands.. We must pay attention to the American space in this global commodity chain...


VCS Could you take a look at the American studio locations I have identified on the list of World Studio locations and tell me whether we are looking at cam-studios or simply webcontent providers who contract out content production work overseas?

thanks
UL

This post has been edited by UncleLewis on November 17, 2006 03:35 pm

Oh VCS.. most of the websites that we know well, MyFreeCams, Peekshows, Pornication.. are charging anywhere from $5.99 to $6.50 per minute for private sessions..
How can they keep doing that when the charge to a customer on CamContacts, I Friends, or ImLive is only 0.50 to $2.99?
Shouldn't they have been crushed long ago?
Ul

>>most of the websites that we know well, MyFreeCams, Peekshows, Pornication.. are charging anywhere from $5.99 to $6.50 per minute for private sessions..

I've met with the owner of Peekshows before. Was never impressed with their system. No idea what their pricing is. The "market" hasn't really supported such high prices in years. You might check out the Alexa traffic rankings for some of these sites.

http://alexa.com/data/details/traffic_deta...=MyFreeCams.com
http://alexa.com/data/details/main?q=&url=peekshows.com
http://alexa.com/data/details/traffic_deta...rivatefeeds.com

http://alexa.com/data/details/main?q=&url=ifriends.net
http://alexa.com/data/details/traffic_deta...l=streamate.com
http://alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?url=cams.com

The per minute price and percentage actually have less to do with how profitable a site is for a model than most people realize... Again, it's all about the "ratio"...

>>The big boys in this business remain in America, ImFriends (120 employees in their offices in California) , ImLive and Vivid Videos...CCBill, Paypal and IBill are still American owned companies..last I heard - even if they process their paper work elsewhere.

iFriends is owned by WebPower, Inc. A Florida company. WebPower is owned by Al Hadhazy. There is a lot of interesting info about them here:
http://snipurl.com/12dn4

Imlive is owned by Sobonito Investments Ltd. in Cyprus.

Vivid doesn't do cam sites.

CCBill makes most of their money from monthly recurring porn site memberships. Very little comes from cam sites.

PayPal won't touch Adult.

I don't think iBill is even in business anymore. They never did much of anything with cam sites though too. Again, mostly monthly recurring membership porn sites.

>> with the Justice department and the FBI bringing "obscentiy prosecutions" and breaking their chops over underage models..

The Bush administration is doing the best they can to get all things adult internet out of the US. They even teamed up with credit card companies to make it happen. It's complicated, but you know the recent laws making it more difficult for people to declare bankruptcy and get out of paying off their CC debt? That was part of the deal with the Feds

>> VCS Could you take a look at the American studio locations I have identified on the list of World Studio locations...

Okay.

Thanks..VCS...again

U are well on ur way to become a valuable resource for this forum..

Ul
P.S. Doesn't Video Secrets have a connection to Vivid? as well as run Flirt4Free that advertizes and features well known porn stars like Ron Jeremy and Ginn Lynn.
There seems to be a strong overlap in the advertising between offering Porn celebrities along with cam models from Asia, Eastern Europe and Latin America - plus a few Americans and Canadians.

This post has been edited by UncleLewis on November 17, 2006 03:53 pm

>>Doesn't Video Secrets have a connection to Vivid?

They have some kind of deal, but I'm not privy to the specifics. VS Media (Video Secrets) has gotten Vivid girls to appear in their booth at trade shows before (ie. Jenna Jameson). They are not owned by the same people though.

>>There seems to be a strong overlap in the advertising between offering Porn celebrities along with cam models from Asia, Eastern Europe and Latin America...

Only VS Media does this really. Just a way to get members to the site. CamClub/Spread4u* had a deal with Sunny Leone (Penthouse) awhile back. I think it's over now though. I don't know of any other sites that have "real" porn models appear.



*unlinked by moderator

This post has been edited by SlideR on November 17, 2006 10:27 pm

>>want to get out of the shadows and pay state taxes, and pay benefits or sickness & vacations...

Or they could structure their business in a legal way (tax wise). Form a company, take a smaller % from the models that work in their facilities "indepently" (through a company like VCS) and pay local taxes on the money they earn (revshare) for the use of their premises by these "independent" models. Yes, that would mean the models are not technically their employees and thus they would need to incentivize things to get models to work more hours, show up on time, etc... The models would receive their money directly by transfer to their own Visa Electron card linked to account outside of their home country. They then register as a self employed person in their country. Declare their earnings (if they remember to) and pay a % in taxes. They could also pay for their own benefits. Insurance in Ukraine for a young model would probably cost about $50 to $100 for 1 year.

Then everything is legal, the owners don't have to worry about police raids (unless they are in Ukraine) and the models feel at least somewhat more empowered and secure. Yes, the owners would be making less profit per studio, but the risk of being shut down is almost nothing so they can expand and open up more facilities, without the risk of losing everything, and ultimately make more money. They also don't have to pay off the tax police anymore...

But then again... What do I know...

But would students declare themselves as freelancer workers ?

The VCS solution, as i guess that it is your company's solution...may be an interesting one but for full time camgirls only...
I don't think that students who chose this job for the (under table) "wage" but also for the flexible shifts schedule would take so much precautions.

They may have other things to worry about..like their studies. No ?

>>But would students declare themselves as freelancer workers ?

All it involves, at least in the countries we've dealt with so far, is filling out a simple form and getting a "tax book". It's not that complex. Lots of students do it. But the truth is the way the money is transferred it is still all "under the table". How much they declare as income to the tax authorities, if they declare anything at all, is entirely up to the model.

Froglover scores again with a couple good points..
The first has to do with several small inaccuracies in the press report - the number of Computer stations was 6 not 12, and the dildos were more like 4 than 20- and more likely belonged to the personal toy-sets of some individual models rather than representing some kind of "standard equipment" issued by the studio .

But there is one major inaccuracy that she underscores which deserves our close attention: What was the real payscale in Kiev? The newspaper reports 7 grivens per minute of private session or $1.40 - more than freelancers working in Russia are paid when they work from home for the Contours Model Agency which pays $1.30 per minute.

The payscale in Kiev or Odessa is nothing close to this. So even though AXxx"s studio is reputed to have paid the best in the Ukraine, what Ukrainian cam-models are paid is near the bottom rung on the wage ladder for this global industry.
So Ukrainians are interesting to webpimps in Amsterdam, Cyprus, Montreal or Nevada not only because they are attractive, competent with computers or good English speakers, primarily it's because they are an economic bargain - that is, dirt cheap to hire.

Here I will quote the relevant section of what I have already written on global payscales in my reading room - but by putting it here people will be at last able to comment..lol

So Girls and Guys, the European and Ukrainian wage ladder for Cam-Models looks something like this.
[FONT=Arial]

In the Russian and Ukrainian studios, some girls work with interpreters and others don't. The Ukrainians get about $2 an hour just for doing free chat. If they work alone they get to keep the whole amount, if they work with someone they split the fee. The translators are paid 66 grms for a 6 hour shift which works out to about $1.15 per hour or $10 per shift. They get nothing of the fees the Models earn from their private shows - even when it's the translator who's actually the show's "director."

So as of Fall 2005, the American and Canadian girls were generally paid about $1.99 per minute for private sessions with clients, but now most have left because of pay cuts. MyFreeCams has a 50/50 split with its freelancers or Studio bosses in Romania, and the bosses in turn split their share with their girls. So Romanian studio models get at least 25% of the customer fee and generally earn between $1.25 to $1.50 per minute - though some on MFC do earn less - a little as 0.90. But there are Romanian cam-girls from Iasi who appear on Secret Friends who only earn 0.09 cents on each dollar their website collects, or about 0.54 cents per minute.

The Czechs and Slovaks earn about one dollar to a $1.20, and the Bulgarians, Estonians and Russians about 0.70 cents to 0.80 cents. The Ukrainians were near the bottom of the global pay-scale, only earning between 0.25 to 0.30 cents per minute plus their measly hourly fee. Bulgarian Models on Livejasmin only earn 0.25 cents per minute, while some Romanians are reportedy paid a little as 0.10 per minute for flashing themselves -a fee they must then split with their studios - leaving them with only a nickel.


Since last summer the Ukrianian studios have started to pay slightly more and have cut their models shifts from eight hours to six. The new payscale is called an "evolution system" which means that the pay rate varies according the number of minutes in private sessions the model accumulates. For the first 500 minutes, the pay rate is 0.30 cents per minute, for 500 to 1500 minutes, the pay rate rises to 0.35 cents and for anything over the monthly quota of 1500 minutes, the rate goes to 0.37 cents.

The actual payout depends on something called a point system. For doing positive things like refreshing their photos in their bios, models are rewarded with 1 point worth about $5.00, but for infractions of the rules models are deducted points from their salary. So failing to respond to a clients emails might cost a girl 1 point, or failing to write regularly to the clients in the address book another. Divulging personal information costs 3 points or $15, missing a shift without advance notice might cost $50, and so on. Studio models are often subject to rigid work rules and punishing fines - that allow the Studio admins to "take back" some portion of their nominal monthly earnings as "givebacks".[/FONT

I am told that some of the top models in Kiev or Odessa, those who do more than 1500 minutes of private, can earn between $800 and $900 per month - which by Ukrainian standards, where the average household income per year was only $1247 in 2004 and where average monthly salaries are often $60 or less, puts them in a high income category. Of course most models are earning much less - say between $200-$300 per month because they never clear the 500 minute threshold and their earnings are reduced by crippling fines for mis-behavior.

But we can put this rosy vision of the Cam-Girl as top performers among Ukrainian wage earners into a clearer perspective if we think about how much money they are earning for their studio owners, and foreign web-pimps... Take our hypothetical cybersex star from Kiev for instance. Imagine she clears her 1500 minute monthly quota and somehow stays off her admins' studio hit list. How much does she need to earn for the website to get her $900? Well at the discounted rate for big customers, her client will charged $5.99 for one minute of her company. So 1500minutes X $6 per minute = $90,000 for DHL.

Out of this sum, the Canadian masters from DHL will keep 60% or $54,000- most of which will stay in Montreal, and Axxx the American Studio owner, will recieve the remaining 40% - or $36,000 -most of which no doubt will go into his Brooklyn Bank account rather than ever find its way to Kiev.

And what of our hypothetical "Top Cam-Ho' " in this cyberland version of a whoremaster's stable? What's her share of the monies that she has earned while lying on her back for hours on end? Her take-home pay is exactly 1% of the total proceeds to the website, or 4% of her American boss's share. So even if by Ukrainian standards, cam models are extremely well paid- by world standards they function more like a bank machine that endlessly generates dollar bills - and serves her masters like some kind of milk cow - c'est a dire, une vache a lait...

All of this makes me wonder about the economic sense of "ruining one's reputation to get an education," when one can be so mercilessly "ripped off,"
and run the risk of arrest and ending one's university's education and future professional career, as a normal part of the bargain.


UL

This post has been edited by UncleLewis on December 04, 2006 03:33 pm

Attached Image

I've been in this business since 1999 and I feel the rates, while possibly accurate in this specific situation, are not in any way indicative of the business as a whole. We are working with studios and models in 9 countries currently and have a current waiting list of 14 more studios wanting to join our network.

Can someone please send me a link for this DHL site you mention? I've never even heard of it. Also, you make it sound like the owners of the site are pocketing 60% of the money spent by members which is hugely inaccurate. The majority of the money spent by members goes to the models/studios and affiliates. I have personally seen the books for some of the largest sites in the business. I know very well what their profit margins are and specifically how much money they bring in per month/year.

Another important point I want to make is that working on a site that charges members $6 per minute does not mean models will make more money than they would working on a site that charges $3 per minute. Let's take it a step further... Models working on a site that pays 50% will not necessarily make more than they would on a site that pays 30%. In fact I would venture to guess they will make significantly less money in all.

I could give you an example of a model now who is earning about $80,000 USD per year working on sites that pay her between 30% and 35% of what members spend. Her price is usually $2.99 per minute. Sometimes she'll raise it up to $3.49. Never more. Why? Because if she raises her price higher, while she may make more per private session, she makes less in total since fewer members go private...

In my experience studios from poorer, or more politically volatile, countries or cities tend to pay the models much smaller percentages both because they feel they can and because there is a larger risk to them. You also have to factor in the money they have to pay their "roof" or to police. Now yes, I do understand that these owners are often terrible to these models and the conditions they work under can be very bad. I also know of many very nice studio owners who have a huge problem with the girls in the studios. Many people have told that for people in Eastern Europe to take you seriously you have to be a "strong boss" and if you are too nice people (ie. models) will not take your seriously or not listen to you. I'm merely trying to illustrate it's not always so black and white.

I really am very curious about this DHL site. Anyone have a link?

P.S. by UL, June 2009, Well Vcs was probably right.. Look at my update on payscales and my belated apology to him: http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.p...&st=0#entry8722

Also a correction. The studio that started this thread did not have 6 hour shifts. The other Ukrainiian studio does and sometimes a model will do a 'double shift' there for 12 hours.

This ex-studio had 2 7 hour shifts (back to back which could be taken as a 14 hour double shift) and a 10 hour shift. It had at least been like that since April, when I started visiting the studio.

Sometimes models who did a 10 then 'skipped' the next day's 7 would come back for the second 7 and spend the 'in-between' time at the studio, emailing, talking, or getting a little rest.

I don't claim to know other studio's much, but I knew this one's hours and models' schedules so well, the models would sometimes ask me who was working when.

The fines also were done for smoking, eating, drinking, etc. in any public situation as well as pvts if they did not get permission first. It irritated me to NO END that every time I went private I had to tell them "do what -you- want" then list all these things. I did not realize until later that they got fined if I was not 'specific'. When a few of the models realized this annoyed me, they stoped asking me and just got fined... When I found this out, I asked why they did not tell me and the answer was 'we will take the fine because it is -you- vodka'.

I did not know about the personal information fine until reading this...that is terrible I know many who lost a lot for telling me what they did

And yea, pimp-boss Axxx isn't doing jack for these girls in this situation. They have to cover their own lawyer costs AND didn't get paid the last month and a half they worked. So they

Dear VCS...
DHL Visual Networks in Montreal run feeds to four websites, Lovesexxxy, pornication and privatefeeds..all dot com. They also have a gay site livebucks.

The per minute rates that you find so hard to believe, are pretty standard for much of Eastern Europe..that is Bulgaria, Belarus, Moldavia,Russia and The Ukraine. I think that they might even represent the bottom rung of the wage ladder for this world wide industry - except I have no real idea of how little studio models are really paid in Central and Latin America or the Phillippines. I have been told repeatedly one dollar per minute for Bogota, and less than a dollar for Manila.. I suspect much less but have no specific number..

The figures I give in my longer piece in my reading room - look in "Preliminary Research Findings" - are based on a standard questionnaire administered across 8 European countries over the past year. I have 700 bio cases in my data set and the numbers keep coming up the same for all the girls working on CamContacts, Flirt4Free, LiveJasmin, Myfreecams, peekshows and privatefeeds.. They are of course very different and somewhat higher for anybody working as a freelancer or on one of the bigger sites like IFriends or Imlive. One Romanian Freelancer on Imlive, for instance, told me that they were a "fair payer" and that she averaged about $10.00 an hour which was enough to satisfy her.

The middle rungs on this global wage ladders are represented by the Canadian, Czechs, Romanian and Slovak studio models. The Canadians and Romanian studio models seem to be paid the best - anything from between $1.25 to 1.50 per minute..The Czechs and Slovaks come next at between $1 and 1.20 or a euro per- minute.

I know from many conversations with models - as well what is advertised by Contours and Liveshow.ru, (also available in Preliminary ResearchFindings under the heading "How Is This Job Advertised") - that the highest amount that Russians are paid is $1.30 for freelancers and 0.80 cents for studio models. Some of the top performers in the Saint Petersburg studios can be paid as much as a dollar a minute - according to the "evolution system" mentioned above, but the Siberian models who work for Cam Contacts for instance, are often paid much less - as little as 0.25 cents. The pay rate for models in Belarus and Bulgaria is about 0.70 cents per minute.

But as Froglover and I have already said, 0.40 cents or less is the norm for models in Moldavia and the Ukraine. Remember VCS, that DHL's studio in Kiev - whose models worked on privatefeeds - were reputedly the best paid in the Ukraine. This is because they were paid more - as much as 0.37 cents per-minute for privates and in addition were also paid a flat hourly fee of $2.00 per hour for just appearing in free chat. According to a comment that Kiev Studio director let slip last spring.. the other studios there pay just 0.20 cents for privates. This is also true of Livejasmin which pays 0.25 cents to its Bulgarian models.. Now the figure for Livejasmin is especially interesting and relevant because they are a large site with heavy traffic and have over 31,000 models registered with them. They even out rank IFriends and Imlive according to their ratings.

So then, let's face it, VCS, Eastern Europe is a just different universe from the one that you are used to dealing with. And it's this enormous disparity in working conditions and payscales that motivated the Manifesto made by American Cam Models last Winter where they protested the "underhandedness" of the European studio competition that was undercutting their wage standards in the US. The Americans were essentially accusing the "Romanian Studio Slaves" of being "rate busters." While it doesn't show much sympathy or understanding of the postion of the European sutdio models, it does represent an independent verification of my findings - done this time by the American cam girls themselves.

I have posted it "American Cam Girls Can Make Money," in my reading room - so you can go take a look.

And yes, VCS, I do realize that the website and studio share isn't pure gravey.. and that they face heavy expenses in the form of advertising budgets, buying bandwidth, payouts to their webmaster affiliates, and payouts to studio owners.
Ditto for the Studio owners who must rent apartments, buy expensive computer equipment, pay taxes if they are legal or payoffs if they are underground - but even so,, we must agree that the payscales of these European models are way under what their American Canadian and West European colleagues can earn.

UL

This post has been edited by UncleLewis on December 02, 2006 05:22 am

>>So then, let's face it, VCS, Eastern Europe is a just different universe from the one that you are used to dealing with.

We deal primarily with Eastern Europe.

Okay then VCS.. what do your model friends get..?
What can they expect to be paid - per minute or per hour?
And how to explain the difference? Are they all freelancers?
Or is it the kind of site that they work on..??

UL

"Now the figure for Livejasmin is especially interesting and relevant because they are a large site with heavy traffic and have over 31,000 models registered with them."

"Registration" might not be a true indication of numbers, UL. I know one model who has at least four Jasmin names. I've even seen a few girls using different names at the same time (not sure if it was intentional or not).

"young and arrogant"

lol... I'm wondering if "arrogant" is the best translation? Linguists?

Cheers,
Elan

elan.. on some sites a girl can have 4 'screens' at the same time.. jasmin is one of those sites.. was.. sorry because they changed the software.. chathostess.com is the same.. ifriends.. lol.. there girls have up 2 100 "screen names" which means that the same girl appears online 100 times.. with different names.. and different profiles...

also i have attached an example of what i mean
a chathostess printscreen on how a grl can creat 4 profiles:) and be online with all 4

This post has been edited by SlideR on December 03, 2006 12:41 pm

Attached Image

1) that pic is from www.chathostess.com
2) i see that livejasmin has given up on that...
3) i have no idea what are the payrates in other countryes.. here u get 50% from what u make.. so... that is about it...
4) on livejasmin grls make big bucks... it is the same as everywhere.. u just have to find the right "personality'

[And what of our hypothetical "Top Cam-Ho' " in this cyberland version of a whoremaster's stable? What's her share of the monies that she has earned while lying on her back for hours on end? .................... by world standards they function more like a bank machine that endlessly generates dollar bills - and serves her masters like some kind of milk cow - c'est a dire, une vache a lait...]

UL ud better be more careful with such words. Ho'? whoremasters stable? sounds great. Bank machine? Milk cow? u r talking about live people.
And also. Model cant be in top 'laying at her back for hours'. What about lying in very uncomfortable pose trying to smile? And its only free chat. Models would be too lucky earning prvts by just laying on back. But prvt means action. So again be careful with words.
Compare with lowest salaries in Ukraine make this work look really great.... what about investigations in toys, lingerie, cosmetics and other important things i wont name?
Also would like to tell that 'Top Cam...' yes, Models r mostly those ones who r working a lot sometimes not having normal days off and sleep for long time. Or someone wanna tell 12 hours night shift is normal and easy thing?

Delfina, I used the term hypothetical "cam-ho"...but your Boss in Canada, Mr. Karl Halmilton, hosted a party for webmasters two years ago where private feeds passed out a company T-Shirt that read: "Ask me about my Hoes.." Funny man, our dear Karl, Ne't? See below or Go take a look at the photo set in our "WebPimp of the Month" from last December's party and read the privatefeedsT-Shirt all the models are wearing. It reads "Help Me I need a Pimp!" HA HA HA...? This is how the webpimps who employ you talk about you and your colleagues when you are not in the room, Delfina. So don't imagine for one second that it's me who thinks this way.

I am not the one who is treating the Kiev studio as an "internet bordello." But Ukrainian militiamen are...and the whole Ukrainian press is repeating it word for word most faithfully...They are in the process of redefining cam-work as "virtual prostitution" and - please read for yourself the press reports here - your friend Alex will be accused of a cyber version of "Human Trafficking" which means that the prostitution charge is not just some literary metaphor. Redefining "cam-work" as "virtual prostitution" lies at the heart of the prosecution's case. It's what allows the American police to get involved in arresting Alex - not for pornography production, but for "Traffick in Human Beings."

Interestingly enough, Delfina, your quote jumps over the main point of the passage you cite from me - the fact that a model in the Ukraine get exactly 1% of the monies she generates for the website.. and 4% of what her studio boss earns...That was my main point - that in global terms, you and your colleagues are doubly screwed - and now in the case of your Kyif colleagues, left "holding the bag" to boot, while you boss walks free. Tell me if I have mis-understood the economics here?

As for for defining models as milk cows, Delfina, I am afraid this is common usage among web-pimps in their private forums. We should understand this a clever play on the term "cash cow" referring to a division of a corporation that generates enough income to pay for the other expenses of the corporation. Funny, but it hurts all the same. I wonder what Alex's other business interests are, don't you?
My point about usage is witnessed by the following quote..

Comment from Klixx -Klixxx Magazine Archive - Klixxx Global
A New European Union Emerges - Part 2
by John-Christophe Gramont

How to please the customers of today and the ones to come:
�Don't give away too much for free..."
It's a line that we've heard pretty often in Klixxx Magazine and Webmaster conventions: "If you can get milk for free, why would you buy a cow?" The same slogan goes for European surfers. ...etc, etc...."

So Delfina, I was speaking in my usual "ironic voice," but with an extra dose of sarcasm this time because "Uncle" is angry...really deeply angry, over this Kiev mess and the ways my friends have been hurt by this whole "fucking" industry. And I don't really think of this as prostitution but a perverse from of "performance art."
Don't you know that by now, Delfina?

If not, then please read carefully what I have written in my "preliminary research findings.." and you will see two things. First that I say clearly that there is no real comparision between working as a cam-model and working as an indoor or outdoor prostitute. This is true for two obvious reasons - the physical risks of disease and violence of regular prostitution are not present in a cam-studio - and cyber sex is really about text messaging - not the exchange of physical sex acts between two people. So it fails the prostitution test for the simple reason that there's "No Foreign man in your room or inside you" - just a damn textual command from some "virtual presence." So in what sense is private cyber-ring between two ISP addresses really prostitution, or for that matter pronography production? Here I must agree with Froglover who says a much better comparison would be with "phone sex." Cam-work sounds to me like the "utlimate in safe-sex" and an economic alternative to actual escort work, or giving a sexual performance on a stage in front of a live audience.

Second the "Human trafficking" charge also seems to me to be most implausible - however politically convenient it maybe internationally. Cam-models can stay at home and stay in school and still get paid without leaving their country - or without abandoning their families and friends. So how does this feed "Human trafficking?" Maybe in some indirect way by advertising the charms of Ukrainian women and thereby contributing to real romance or sex tourism by Western men. But again the charge seems implausible.. but that won't stop the authorities from making it, will it?

I hope this clarifies my actual position, Delfina.

No disrespect was intended by me towards you or your colleagues, and I apologize if you took offense. But in the end, nothing about this business is supposed to be that personal, ne't? For as one of your colleagues in Kyiv once told me: "This is the Internet. There IS no emotions here..." Was she wrong, Delfina?
Poka
Ul


This post has been edited by UncleLewis on December 04, 2006 12:37 pm

Attached Image

>>the fact that a model in the Ukrainel get exactly 1% of the monies she generates for the website.. and 4% of what her studio boss earns...

Most sites pay more than 25% and I really don't think that 4% figure is accurate. There is too much competition amongst studios in Ukraine. While we don't currently work with any studios in Ukraine, and may never unless the political climate there changes, I do know many people working in Kiev, Odessa and Donetsk and none of them make that little. The lowest paying Eastern European studios I have ever heard of are in Siberia and Uzbekistan and they pay at least 20% to the models and some as high as 30%. We work with many studios that pay 50% or 60% to models and one pays their top model each period 100%.

Let's do some math:
$3.00 per minute
35% revshare

$1.05 goes to the studio.

Let's say the model gets a VERY LOW 20% of that. That means $0.21 cents per minute goes the model.

Your 4% figure suggests the model would only receive $0.04 per minute and $2.40 per hour for private chats. Have models, who were not trying to get you to send them money directly, ever told you they make that little? If you figure a model may spend about 30% of their work day in private chat and let's say, for example, works an 8 hour shift, we're talking less than $6 per day. I just don't see this happening in Kiev. I suppose it's possible in a country like Colombia or in parts of Asia.

>>What can they expect to be paid - per minute or per hour?

$20 to $25 per hour they work (not just private time) is not uncommon for top full time models. All that really prevents an Independent Eastern European model from making as much as an Independent American models is that they don't speak or understand English as well and, most importantly, they don't understand American men as well. It really comes down to cultural understanding. That said, I have seen Eastern European models make more than $25 per hour. Usually that's from a "whale" or two that has fallen in love.

Now keep in mind... I'm talking total money here, before the studio takes a cut, and I am talking about for each hour they work. Not each hour they are in private.

Also, the average model in Eastern Europe really has next to no idea how to make money on these sites. They basically wait for a member to trip and fall into private chat and often are VERY rude to members in free chat who don't go private. Of course, not all are this way and I do realize that members can be awful to these girls. Also, most sites do not give the models the tools they need to work more efficiently, but that is a whole other topic. Also, it's worth noting, that top performing models realize that the big money is earned by getting more than 1 member in private at the same time which means "working" free chat a little while in private with a member.

>>This how the webpimps who employ you talk about you and your colleagues when you are not in the room, Delfina.

They also call the site members, "idiots", "perverts", "freaks", "losers" and joke about how they are doing a service to society by keeping these guys in front of a computer and off the street Most negative comments are reserved for the members actually. Sure there is the occasional derogatory comment made about models, but usually they talk about how extremely "hot" (or occasionally extremely "ugly") the model is and very often, depending on the site (st......e), try to buddy up and possibly someday travel to meet their favorite models.

This post has been edited by vcs on December 04, 2006 01:39 am

VCS, Our difference has to do with the baseline assumption about the per minute charge to the customer.

On MFC it works out to something like $6.00 per minute for privates; on private feeds it was $6.50 for small blocks of time - discounted to $5.99 for larger blocks, on peeks something like $6.00 per minute that is - 20 tokens for $25 at 5 tokens per minute. I think it's something similar for flirt4free, if not higher. So more it works out to be something like 2 to 3 times the per minute fees charged on IFriends, Imlive, Livejasmin or Streamate.

In most of the Romanian and Slovak studios, at this $6.00 rate, the girls were getting anywhere from a $1.00 to $1.50 depending on the country and the studio.
I met one Ukrainian woman on peeks who told me she was getting $1.00 per minute - everybody else there in karelia, St.Pete or Siberia was paid at the standard Russian rate of 0.80 cents for studio performers..On the privatefeeds however the studios in the Ukraine started at 0.30 cents per minute and went up to a maximum of 0.37 cents.. which when taken out of a $6.50 customer fee works out to be a 5.6% payout to the model.. and for anything else less..down to 4.6%. But this was after a major pay increase this summer. As of last winter Odessa was paying 0.25 cents per minute - and making it up with a supplemental payment of $2.00 for an hour of free chat. If we are talking about the studio owner's share, it might look a little better.
Let's assume Alex was getting 40% of the perminute fee or $2.60, the model's share at 0.30 is now 11.5% of her employer's share or 14% if she's paid at the top rate.

In any case, what she paid seems considerably below the norm, say, in Bratislava, Bucharest, or Prague where on average models recieve close to 25% of the total site fee and 50% of what their studio earns.

VCS, I didn't get these figures from a single source..I heard it repeatedly from many models in different studios. So if the information is wrong, I will have to start over again from scratch with a new methodology, and be grateful to you and to Sweet October for saving me from making a major error.

BTW I agree with you about how web-pimps talk about their customers on their webforums.. that is, with near total contempt. Their attitude is expressed very clearly in what they tell their models to expect - as one can read for oneself in the Model Handbook that I have posted in my reading room. Of course, freelance models themselves aren't very charitable with each other either. When they speak on their webforums about other girls or about customers, there's often an undertone of contempt and self-loathing that colors much of their discourse. I think this is very revealing of the degree that they have internalized the social stigma attached to their work.

UL
I am Including another example of a privatefeeds company logo where cam-girls get to advertise their deepest needs.

This post has been edited by UncleLewis on December 04, 2006 01:00 pm

Attached Image